On the ferry to Vashon Island while filming Parts Unknown in Seattle, Washington, in 2017. Photo by David Scott Holloway, courtesy of CNN.
When I heard the shocking news, I thought back to my interview with Anthony Bourdain about writing and eating.
I wanted to interview him about writing. In 2004 I was working on the first edition of Will Write for Food, my book about how to become a food writer. Bourdain’s bestseller, Kitchen Confidential, had come out four years earlier, and he already had a travel show.
The path to Bourdain was surprisingly easy. I got his email from the editor of a food magazine. I went through an assistant whose email was “grillbitch,” who set up a phone interview. Bourdain and I talked about food writing, memoir, eating, cooking, and travel.
I was a nobody, but he gave me his time. He took my questions graciously and seriously, even talking about his drug use.
For the first time, I present this 2004 interview here. It’s entertaining, irreverent, but full of good advice. Parts of it are chilling and sad, in light of his death. When you read it (edited for length and clarity), you’ll be struck by how much he sounds the way he always did, in interviews and on his CNN TV show Parts Unknown.
Later he wrote a spectacular endorsement of my book. It’s been on the cover for most of the last 15 years, and it still thrills me to read it.
So here’s my posthumous interview with Anthony Bourdain, about how to write and eat fearlessly:
Q. How is good food writing different than good writing?
A. It’s not different. One should be able to write on a variety of subjects. You need a command of language, and the ability to say anything in an interesting way.
Specific to food, you need passion, knowledge and enthusiasm for your subject, and not to be a snob. Snobbery is anathema in food writing.
Lots of food writers don’t like food and don’t like people. They are skeptical, frightened, and sneering. Concerned about sanitation. Critics get jaded very quickly. It’s a terrible impediment. Critics are a death sentence for good writers. It’s hard to write afterwards. They have used up all the adjectives.
I don’t like strong prejuidices. Collect experiences like a butterfly collection rather than you ‘love eating and cooking.’
It’s important to like the people who prepare your food, not to be contemptuous of people who cook. It’s a common flaw to be contemptuous of a subject or afraid of the nasty bits, dirt, strange food, unfamiliar experiences, or be jaded.
Fear of the other makes a lot of food and travel writers bad. Get people to talk about eating in Mexico – the water, I might get sick, raw vegetables. Lots of food writing is concerned with health and purity. That’s dangerous, friend. Food is about decay and dirt. Moldy cheese, fermented wines. Bacteria. The original ketchup was garum, rotted fish.
Q. What is your approach to writing?
A. I imagine other cooks as my readers. I write on paper the way I talk to my cooks in the kitchen, as someone for whom a lot of the world is new and exciting, as someone who’s been working in kitchens for a long time.
I’m writing from a cook’s perspective. I have limited expertise. I am neither an expert or critic or a reliable guide. I approach it with a stated point of view, to be open to the world.
Writing about food feels good. Someone else is doing the cooking. When you go to a restaurant, say ‘I hear you’re great, what is it you do?’ I want the whole ride.
Often I am cynical when approaching a subject, but I allow myself to be won over. It’s great to be wrong, to go to a place and be won over.
Bourdain’s first non-fiction book, a memoir, based on his first personal essay, published in The New Yorker.
Writing and cooking are dominant acts. Eating is a completely submissive act. It’s essential for a food writer to submit to whatever happens. Good meals should be magic at whatever level. You’re not going to get it if you don’t let go of the reins.
Q. Which food writers do you enjoy reading most?
A. I really enjoy A.J. Leibling, especially this quote: “A man who is rich in his adolescence is almost doomed to be a dilletante at table. This is not because all millionaires are stupid, but because they are not impelled to experiment.”
There’s that authoritative curmugeon, Jeffrey Steingarten. He likes to eat.
Jim Harrison. The Raw and the Cooked. He was one of the last attitude-free bon vivants. Grab all the life in two hands and eat.
Q. How would you advise someone who wants to write about the senses?
A. Enjoy your own. To cook well, you have to like to eat, like sex, movies, things that feel good. Chefs tend to live slightly larger-than-life existences. Enjoy all of life’s pleasures. Make food come alive.
Q. What are the characteristics of the best food writers?
A. They are romantics. Passionate. They love not just food but are fully aware of the context. They are able to personalize it, able to make the reader feel how they felt before the meal, how much of a revelation or surprise it was. They have to be humanists, like Leibling and M.F.K. Fisher. A.A. Gill of the Sunday Times is mean, cynical, sarcastic, unbelievably cruel, passionate, not afraid, not a snob. Underneath it all, though, he’s a failed romantic.
Q. What is your voice about?
A. I’m not shy about hyperbole. I remind the reader at all times who’s talking. I’m not an authoratative third person. It’s not from the mountain top. It’s what happened to me that day and how it made me feel. I use myself as a comedic foil.
I have a reasonable understanding of what it took to prepare the food. I’m always at least as interested in who’s cooking as how the food got there. I appreciate it as part of the story. The best foods came from great human suffering, struggle and poverty. Much of French cuisine came from grim necessity. You don’t want to look at food in a vacuum.
I’ve been accused of being macho. I don’t understand what that means. There are qualities every chef has to have: confidence, authority, leadership, and control. It’s okay to have introspection and self doubt in lonely moments.
Q. How does one become discriminating about food?
A. Eat a lot. It’s just that simple. The more widely you eat, the more varied the circumstances. Start to appreciate different things. When you see what really great chefs cook after work, they make something very simple and heartfelt. It’s evocative of happier or simpler time. It’s the same process when someone who loves you is making it. Chefs don’t want to see technique after hours, they want to submit.
Q. Do you need a background in food to be a food writer?
A. It helps. You don’t necessarily have to have worked in a professional kitchen, but helps to have hung out there, know a lot of chefs, and be familiar with the food chain. Alcohol is necessary. I can’t imagine how to be a food writer as a teatotaler.
Q. Let’s move on to memoir. What was the hardest thing for you about switching from fiction to memoir?
A. Memoir’s a lot easier. I didn’t have to worry about the plot and I knew who was speaking at all times.
Q. How did you decide which stories to tell?
A. I measured entertainment value versus who gets hurt. Is this story really essential. If it’s just a horror story or has no comedic value, leave things out.
Q. Annie Dillard said most good memoir turns out not to be about the memoirist at all. What do you think of that quote?
A. I like it. How interesting can one person be? I didn’t know I was writing a memoir. I was writing about the world I lived in, as I felt it and saw it.
It helped me tremendously that I was working full time as a chef. I didn’t have the luxury of time to think about why I couldn’t or shouldn’t write, and I didn’t have the luxury of thinking it was more important than what I was doing at work. I didn’t want to make myself look any better than I was. It was very easy to make it into a poor me book. I was not afraid to look like an asshole if I was one or am one. Otherwise it had a predicable story arc.
I want to keep reminding people exactly how reliable and unreliable the person is who’s talking to them. I didn’t want to talk down. When I was a heroin addict, I spent a Christmas eve in the snow on the sidewalk, selling my books and records. Having been a heroin addict was extremely valuable. You never think anything is beneath you.
Q. What advice do you have for someone who wants to write memoir?
A. Look unblinkingly at your life. Describe the most painful and embarrassing parts. Try to find something funny about it. Comedy walks a fine line between comedy and tradgedy. Richard Pryor talked about excruciatingly painful moments of his past. Use the same rule as I do if possible: make the bad guys unsympathetic. It’s not the plot. It’s about whether I’m still going to like the hero at the end of the chapter. The reader should waver.
Q. What about someone who wants to do travel writing based on food?
A. It’s the best job in the world. It’s really important to be a good guest. Be willing to put yourself in a situation and let things happen. Absolute fearlessness is essential. Don’t be squeamish or hesitant. I have eaten a lot of food that was very difficult, but I’m often the honored guest.
The table is the best reflection of a nation, the fastest way into that culture. People who let down their guard, it requires that you match them shot for shot with the vodka laced with bear bile. Now is not the time to say ‘I’m a vegetarian’ or ‘I’m lactose intolerant.’ You’re not going to move closer to the heart of the matter.
I always eat like at I did at my grandmother’s house. I don’t go out there looking for shock horror food, but I take what comes. Leave yourself open to that meal that’s going to make you sick or queasy, or you will never have that magic experience.
Find where local people are eating, not the best restaurant in town. Ask a taxi driver, someone at a market, say ‘Where do you eat?’ People tend to be happy and pleased that someone from far away would be interested. People drive me to their homes when I take that attitude.
Bourdain enjoying dim sum in Queens, New York. Photo by David Scott Holloway, courtesy of CNN.
Avoid France and Italy. Go to Southeast Asia, Vietnam, and China. Singapore and Malaysia. It’s such fertile ground. You get excited because everyone is crazy about food. It’s certainly easier to come up with something fresh that hasn’t been done. Like chef Tim Kelley, runawaychef.com. He travels by himself all over Asia, eating. It’s wonderful travel writing. He takes exactly the right attitude: Grateful to be alive with his eyes open.
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(Disclosure: This post contains affiliate links.)
Thanks so much for sharing this precious interview, Dianne. Such great insights and advice in there.
Thanks for saying so. I was delighted by how well it still holds up.
When you tell it “like it is” , ala Bourdaine, the truth comes through and the longevity is assured. That was his genius and his humanity. Thanks for running the whole interview. It’s part of his legacy to us all.
Thank you David. He did leave us with so much. Books, interviews, shows, and memories. A lot to ponder.
Dianne, thanks for sharing this. It’s heartening how consistent he was about these ideas, and how generous his spirit was, too.
You are welcome Carrie. I’m glad you’re as delighted as I was to discover it.
Thank you very much, Dianne! This interview teaches a lot, in each answer we get so much to think about. Gratitude for him and for you, because all the writing AND life teaching you do. And sharing this interview is sharing a life experience you’ve had, which is precious. Thanks for giving us the pleasure of this learning and reading.
Very sad for having lost this great Writer/curious/explorer/life teacher.
Kind regards in this painful moment of yours.
Betina
Thank you Betina. I thought he was very wise in this interview, for someone who was a self-taught writer and explorer. I have tried to write the way he says to, and it is hard! And it is also hard to eat the way he says to. I guess he never did anything the easy way, and for that we can learn a lot and be grateful.
Dianne, I know he’s a good interview, but the questions made this piece so powerful. Without the right questions, you don’t get answers like this. I never met him, but after devouring Kitchen Confidential, I fell in love with him, his writing, the brutal honesty, his perhaps embarrassing intelligence, and how he approached the world. My favorite episodes will always be Beirut and Bocuse, where he wore a coat and tie and showed he could grovel.
The details are coming slowly and vaguely. But certainly something caused profound suffering for him to decide whether to stay or leave. I’m so glad you got this out.
This is a lovely compliment Elaine. Thank you. I didn’t realize how much of a fangirl I was until he was gone. It’s kind of embarassing but something tells me there were a LOT of us!
Still beautiful. Still and forever always eminently quotable. I’m so going to miss his voice. Thanks for this. xo
My pleasure. I thought you would like his comments about memoir, particularly. I don’t know how he could just talk about this so brilliantly and extemporaneously.
Dianne, this was the perfect thing to read at this unsettling moment. Thank you for asking great questions, focusing the answers, and sharing it, then and now.
Thank you Jennie. It gave me such pleasure to discover this interview in my files.
Thank you so much Dianne! What Elaine Corn said, about your questions. This is rich and delicious and deep. I keep learning from him and am grateful for all the work he left us. Grateful to you for this visit with him and for your focus on his way of doing this work and if being in this world. I wish he could have stayed longer.
Me too. Thank you Nancie. Fortunately, if we can bear to watch reruns, there is lots to learn from him still. His messages haven’t changed. My favorite thing about him is him embrace of the world.
Great interview. Thanks for posting, Dianne. Pondering how one can be both cynic and open to discovery. Food for thought.
Thank you. I can relate to that. It depends on my mood. Sometimes it requires a shift.
Wow Dianne what an interesting interview, both in terms of your questions and his responses. As you said, it sounds exactly like him. I am still in shock that he’s no longer with us. I had the honour of interviewing him at Cayman Cookout in 2014, and will treasure those moments and his soundbites forever. I was so star struck I am surprised I managed to ask any questions! He was such an extraordinary changemaker and an original, true influencer before influencer became a ‘thing’! Thanks for sharing this interview with us.
YOu are welcome. Great to hear from you! Speaking of star-struckness, when I wrote the first edition I had levels of it. I didn’t have trouble interviewing him but I was terrified to talk with the restaurant critic Jonathan Gold. In those days, the critics were king. He trashed them in this interview!
Thanks for sharing this wonderful interview, Dianne. I find myself wishing our current politicians had (even) just a smidgen of his honesty.
Hah! He would have made a terrible politician, June, wouldn’t he. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing. I’m ashamed to say that I Anthony was not really on my radar screen and I was not necessarily a fan because I did not take the time to understand what his gift was. I didn’t like some of what he did, said, and ate – and after reading more about him from you in this wonderful interview and from others since his tragic death, I understand the absolute brilliance of what he offered. To be open to the world without judgment, to connect with our passions fearlessly, to submit to experiences rather than trying to control them, to recognize that while we may think we are experts in a field, we only have our limited perspective to offer and that other perspectives are just as important and valuable. While I am making Anthony’s acquaintance posthumously, I hope to learn from him going forward. A tragic ending, but it’s clear his essence and inspiration will live on. Beautiful job in helping us to know Anthony better.
Thank you. Oh, he wasn’t perfect at all. He got in fights with people online. Ex. he called Alice Waters outrageous names. See https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/fresh-greens/2009/01/26/anthony-bourdain-alice-waters-annoys-the-living-expletive-out-of-me
Thanks so much for sharing this, Dianne. The last line really breaks my heart. Somehow he lost that gratitude. I’ve been a fan of his TV show and have felt he’d become “a poor way faring stranger in this world of woe” and I guess maybe that overwhelmed him. So tragic.
Me too. I was going to cut the whole thing about the blogger because he isn’t around anymore, but that last line…I had to keep it. Thanks, Dorothy.
Thanks for sharing this with us, Dianne. I keep going around and around in my head trying to understand what led Tony to make such a decision. I think about Chris Cornell’s final conversation with his wife where he said “I’m just tired.” Was Tony just stretched too thin for too many years? Did he relapse on his addiction and become filled with guilt? I guess we will never know. Something made him as unhappy as a person could ever be and that’s heartbreaking to think about.
His words are a comfort. Reading this interview makes me grateful for having grown up in a Navy family, with a mother from the Deep South and neighbors from all corners of the globe, including six years next to another Navy family with parents originally from the Philippines. Like Southerners, their lives are centered on food.
Me too. We think we know him but we don’t. I usually don’t get this involved but it’s hard not to, this time.
I love that you feel comforted by his words and that his thoughts about food ring true to you.
Dianne, this is precisely what I needed to read today. His death has saddened me beyond what I might have expected, and reading his responses to your insightful questions has been comforting.
Oh thank you Jean. We are all still dealing with what his death means. For me, it means the loss of his intellect and ability to embrace the world, no matter what.
Oh my goodness, Dianne, what a terrifically intelligent exchange with such memorable quotes from AB. It’s hard to have a good interview without a good interviewer; I agree with Elaine — you had the best questions, setting a good example for us all.
Thank you Mary Margaret. I was a strict journalist in 2004. I think I have relaxed the rules a little bit for interviewing now. I’m not a conversation with anyone, which is quite different. Here’s a long example:
https://www.eater.com/2016/10/24/13324924/anthony-bourdain-interview-eater-upsell
Thank you for this, Dianne. sigh… I still can’t believe Anthony Bourdain is gone. Reminds me of losing Robin Williams — shocking.
It’s my pleasure. Yes, his death is bringing up all those kinds of memories — others who have killed themselves, had depression etc. It’s a triggering event.
Thank you for sharing this Dianne. It’s great to “hear” his voice again. The loss is still so sad and so puzzling.
Brilliant mind. Deeply thought-provoking spoken words that take most hours to craft in writing and then not nearly as powerful. A great read. A great interview. A great man. Thanks, Diane. So many of us have lost a loved one to suicide. That dark fathomless abyss claims far too many.
I’ve been reading many, many tribute pieces and interviews and this is one of the most powerful in how it represents why he will be so greatly missed. Thanks so much for sharing this piece.
What a lovely compliment, Angela. Thank you.
So grateful that you shared, Dianne. Thank you.
The loss of Tony has been incredibly difficult for many and I’m one small part of the many.
Thank you. It’s amazing how much we are all grieving, in our food community. I suppose there is some solace in that.
Dearest Dianne,
What a window into his mind! There is such melancholy in reading his clear and unwavering words. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Love,
Sandra
Hi Sandra! He seems melancholic to you in this interview? I don’t know if I got that. But he did say some things that made me sad, about being alive in the world at the end, particularly.
Hi Dianne,
This is such a gift. Thank you. While feeling so sad about this loss, your interview gives us a chance to hear his voice again and be reminded of his humble, generous spirit. This is such a good interview because of your excellent questions, as mentioned by a previous comment. Thanks again. I will remember to collect experiences like a butterfly collection.
Thank you Ellen. He has such a strong voice. You can’t mistake him. What struck me about it was his consistent message, whether years ago, on TV or in this interview.
Thanks so much for sharing, Diane. This has been devastating. Reading and listening to his interviews has been helpful.
Sometimes I am not sure if it’s better or worse, Jennifer! I read everything the first few days, and then it was too hard to continue. Now I am searching for reasons WHY he did it. I want to understand what he was going through. But of course, we will probably never know, or no one will say for years.
Thank you for your wonderful tribute. Bourdain’s passing hit me really hard. After thinking about why I was so down, I realized it was because his show (and writing) sparked my interest and fascination of so many places, foods, and cultures that I had previously not given much thought to. His shows are responsible for probably 90% of my current ‘bucket list’ and his legacy of sparking curiosity and kindness will live on.
He was the best kind of guide! I just watched his last show last night, in Berlin. It was hard to do so.
Dianne, thanks for sharing this. Such a loss. And, as usual, enjoyed all the info packed into your newsletter.
Best,
Trish
Thank you Trish, for reading both this and my newsletter.
Dianne: Thank you for sharing this wonderful conversation with Anthony Bourdain. I think you are right about him – he was able to be intimate with the world and we all thought of him as a good friend. Ever the generous man, even after death.
Thank you Carol. I think we will all be grieving for a long time!
Dianne thank you for sharing this.
I just loved every word.
Thank you for your comment, Paige!
Such a great interview, Dianne. It really shows why he was so beloved by so many people. He was so much more than just “that guy who travels and eats weird food on TV”.
Thank you Levy. It’s going to be a little creepy to watch his last shows. I haven’t done it yet.
Thank you for asking great questions, focusing the answers, and sharing it, then and now.
Thank you for saying so, Liam. I’ll probably send this out again on June 25, which Eric Ripert and Jose Andres have proclaimed Anthony Bourdain Day.
Great Q/A session
Thank you.
I really love this amazing interview. Thank you for sharing this wonderful reading article.
Writing is the great activity and for writing you need to read a lot of information. I love this great reading and interview. You had really a great experience. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Thanks for sharing this. I hope he gave you a bundle of memories.
I really enjoy this great interview. So helpful and informative for me, thank you for sharing it.
I love this great reading and interview. You had really a great experience. Thank you for sharing it with us. It’s going to be a little creepy to watch his last shows. I haven’t done it yet. I really love this amazing interview. Thank you for sharing this wonderful reading article.
Dianne this interview is really informative for all of us.. all the questions and answers are really nice to hear and re-reading this article is so interesting. His life experiences are so interesting but each of his answers hav3 a lesson for life.
I’m glad you enjoyed it, Eral.
I was so star struck I am surprised I managed to ask any questions! He was such an extraordinary changemaker and an original, true influencer before influencer became a ‘thing’! Thanks for sharing this interview with us.
It’s going to be a little creepy to watch his last shows. I haven’t done it yet. I really love this amazing interview. Thank you for sharing this wonderful reading article.
I love this great reading and interview. You had really a great experience. Thank you for sharing it with us. It’s going to be a little creepy to watch his last shows. I haven’t done it yet. I really love this amazing interview. Thank you for sharing this wonderful reading article.
I am reading this article about the interview with Anthony Bourdais writing memoir thanks sharing this article
My pleasure. Thanks for reading from Australia.