This smoked salmon pizza in The United States of Pizza includes sliced red onion. This was a source of contention!
If a copy editor has ever touched your cookbook manuscript, you will relate.
And if you haven’t had the experience yet, you will be intrigued — and possibly worried.
Before I start this discussion, however, I want to be clear. I’m grateful for all the goofs our very capable copy editor caught in chef Craig Priebe’s and my new pizza book (The USA of Pizza, October, 2015) manuscript.
But man, some of the queries made us scratch our heads. Here are three examples. I want to know what you think:
1. I wrote “1/4 cup chopped almonds.” The copy editor asked “How many almonds?”
My feeling is that people shouldn’t have to count almonds, most of the time.
2. I wrote “1/4 cup chopped onions.” The copy editor asked, “How much of an onion?”
Depends, I thought. What size is the onion? The chef wanted a more accurate measure.
3. Same thing with celery. I wrote “1 cup chopped celery.” She asked how many stalks.
Then she asked about green onions, red peppers, mushrooms, and olives.
I asked our editor if I had to change the amounts. He said he could see her point if the reader was making a grocery list. But typically readers can’t purchase less than one onion, or 10 almonds, or a single stalk of celery. Given that they have to buy at least 1 onion, a bag of almonds, and a bunch of celery, there would be enough to make the recipe.
Our editor didn’t insist. My co-author wanted precision in the ingredients, being a chef. And I didn’t want to write double amounts. The Recipe Writers Handbook says to “call for each ingredient as it is commonly purchased in the grocery or market, then add simple preparation techniques.” That means I would write, each time:
- 2 small stalks celery, chopped (1 cup)
- 1/2 medium onion, chopped (1/2 cup)
This solution seemed overly complicated to me. So I left the measurements as is.
What do you think? Was there a better way? How would you resolve this?
I’m with you Dianne. A lot of people are put off a recipe, without even perusing it thoroughly, if the ingredients list is too long or the method looks too complicated. Keeping the ingredient list simple is one way to make a recipe more approachable and it’s not rocket science, is it? 1/4 cup or 1/2 cup is pretty straightforward.
You’d think so, Amanda, but apparently people don’t know how much 1/4 cup chopped onion is. The problem is that my co-author the chef wanted more precise measurements. We don’t think it’s rocket science, but perhaps we are not the target readers.
“1/4 cup chopped onion” is OK, it’s “1/4 cup onion/carrot etc.” that’s putting me off. I’m with counting individual ingredients (1 celery stalk, half a carrot, a quarter onion”. Even “a handful of green beans” works better than “one cup of green beans”.
So you prefer to count almonds, ex. “10 almonds, chopped,” rather than “1/4 cup chopped almonds?” I guess it would work either way, because most of the time, the actual amount is not going to vary that much. I did measure some items this way, ex. “5 large basil leaves, chopped.” I suppose that is inconsistent. Sigh.
Obviously, I’m not saying it’s wrong, but given the choice, I’ll buy the book or magazine that clicks with my frame of mind. So funny when I read my great-grandmother’s recipes, something like “one cent worth of yeast”, surely beats the cups/grams dilemma.
That’s really fun, and appropriate for a hand-written recipe. But for today’s publications, it wouldn’t fly, even if the cost was updated. I can actually buy yeast in bulk, so I could probably get a few cents’ worth, but still…
I think it was in the Recipe Writers Handbook that they suggested that two forms of ingredient measurement was acceptable if not preferable. I choose to use the whole form of the ingredient, the preparation and then the quantification:
1 bunch kale, stems removed, sliced into 1-inch strips, about 6 cups
I absolutely think that as long as the author’s choice of description is consistent throughout the book and she speaks directly to her audience her readers will connect and understand. I write for novice cooks, so the more information that they have at hand, the more successful they will be.
Happy Thanksgiving, Dianne XOXO
Hi Jorj! Nice to hear from you.
I like that description for kale because a “bunch” is such an arbitrary amount. When I called for 1/4 cup chopped cilantro, the copy editor wanted to know how much of a bunch it was. I thought it was a totally useless measurement to include. The bunches I buy from the farmer’s market are completely different from those at the supermarket, and even those vary. So it’s good to say 6 cups as well. I just don’t like having to list double measurements for every item. It makes the recipe seem overly complicated.
I did try to be consistent, and I hope that’s sufficient.
Dianne,
As a copy editor, I wholeheartedly agree with your point that bunches vary and I always ask for weight or volume vs. “bunch.”
I would be inclined to think that 1/4 cup is much more accurate than 1/4 onion. The sizes of veg vary so widely depending on variety or where purchased!
I’d be happy to edit your next book! ; )
Ann, she asked for bunch measurements in addition to the “1/4 cup chopped cilantro” measurement. And I like your attitude! Yes please, I would like you to be my copy editor.
I agree that it really depends on how you want the recipes to read and how finicky/precise you want to be, but I think there can be some generalities to simplify things. 1 medium onion is usually about 1 cup chopped. I would prefer to just say “1 medium onion, chopped.” Rarely is the precise measurement of onion so crucial to a recipe that having an extra 1/16 of a cup (or being 1/16 cup short) would ruin the end result. I generally go for the simplest measurement that will provide good results. So for a baking recipe, I would be very specific (even, if i had my druthers, using weights instead of volume measurements), but for a soup or stew, for instance, I figure 1 medium onion, 2 stalks of celery, 2 carrots, etc., is precise enough to get a good result.
That’s a good point, Robin. I didn’t think it mattered so much, but my co-author wanted precise measurement. Most of the time the onion went on top of the pizza as a flavor enhancer, so to my mind, it didn’t need to be exact. Also, chopping it fits in cups, but slicing it does not, necessarily, so it might have been better, in that instance, to say “1/2 medium onion, sliced.”
I always try to give an estimate of the amount of whole vegetables, after the amount chopped (or sliced). So: 1/4 cup chopped onion (about 1/2 small onion). If the preparation is complicated enough that I explain it in the directions, then I try to give an estimate of the amount of prepared vegetables. So, if I call for a fennel bulb, and then explain in the directions how to trim it, remove the core, and slice it, I’ll add “You should have about 2 cups sliced.” It means more writing and a longer recipe, but I want to give my readers as much information as possible.
On a blog, you have the option of including as much text as you want, but I’ve had to cut recipes to make them fit on the page of a printed cookbook. I can understand a long discussion of how to cut up a fennel bulb because doing so may be new to people, and bulbs are different sizes. I don’t think onions are as mysterious.
I think it depends on who your recipe is aimed at. In my website, I err on the side of too much information, as by that time I’ve already tested the recipe a few times and I want it to be perfect for the readers the first time (a blog recipe fail means that readers rarely come back).
If your cookbook was aimed at absolute beginner cooks, I would go with as much information as possible. Commenter 2, Jorj Morgan makes sense, because then the reader could go with either measurement. If it is aimed at more experienced cooks, then one measurement or another would work.
I remember the BBC has a series of Foolproof Cookery books and they were ones that even included precise salt and pepper measurements. The results were indeed foolproof and I still cherish those books, even though I’ve long outgrown them.
The definition of the reader was not even a consideration in this exchange, Michelle! Our book is not for beginners, I think. You have to make your own doughs, plan to let them rest overnight, make the sauce and let it rest, and then make the toppings unless it’s something simple like fresh mozzarella and some basil.
I am a big fan of stating the amount of salt. Did you see the rant I wrote about it? http://diannej.com/2013/do-you-make-these-5-mistakes-with-salt-in-recipes/
I am a recipe copy editor, and though I understand where the copy editor was coming from with his/her questions, I don’t think it necessary to adjust how you called for these items. The only one I would’ve flagged is “1/4 cup onions, chopped,” which I would have edited to read “1/4 cup chopped onions.” Otherwise it reads to measure 1/4 cup of an unchopped onion (not possible) and then chop it. (It also would’ve been consistent with how the other measurements are listed.) I wonder if this is why he/she asked about the amount of onion? I agree with you that writing things out fully (2 small stalks celery, chopped [1 cup]) is cumbersome.
Oh, wonderful to hear from a copy editor, thank you, Ashley. You are right that it should read 1/4 cup chopped onion. Oh oh.
Its a minefield once you start I guess!
The comment re counting the almonds made me giggle (that is certainly taking it too far). Its a difficult choice, as onions all over the world will be different sizes, so it makes sense to mention 1/4 cup of chopped onion – having said this, I rarely do this as my site is aimed at home cooks (and for most vegetables, the precision won’t make any real difference) so they can easily put together a grocery list. Agree with the other commenter that anything being baked should have the actual chopped/diced/etc measurements by cup. So I have some sympathy on both perspectives!
Oh good. So far you are the only one to mention the almonds. I thought it was silly to have to count them, so I’m glad you think so too. Yes, baking is more precise, so I do see your point.
I often complain over the lack of use of weights in American recipes, but I know that it is a cultural difference that is unlikely to change. I much prefer 1/2 cup finely or roughly chopped onion than 1/2 small/medium/large onion as there’s at least some measuring in practice. If an American recipe calls for 1/2 large onion though, for example, I will add 1 large onion here as they are much smaller!
Yes, true, except for a few bakers who like the precision of weights, it is probably not going to change. Agreed that a “large onion” is vague. Often at the grocery store, there is only one size of onion, so how will people know?
Re: Size of onions, I was making a recipe for pissaladiere and the recipe called for something like 5 or 6 onions, sliced.
When I went to the grocery store, they actually had a huge variety of onions that day, and I happened to find one that was literally the size of my head! I eyeballed it, went “Eh, looks about right,” and bought just that one giant onion. The cashier literally gasped when it hit the conveyer belt. Unfortunately never again in my life have I seen such a large onion in person!
On a someone what related note, though, I suppose if I were truly spoiled by a consistent variety of produce availability, I could write a recipe calling for “1 large onion (about 2 kg)” 😉
Yes, that is a good way to write it when you don’t know what size onions people will buy.
Thats a nice one.
Me being a recipe writer and a proofreader I’ve gone through this phase. I guess it’s the instincts that we should use. Generally if the recipe calls for a cup of onion I’d prefer to chop a couple and fit it into my measuring cup. There is no harm in chopping more and storing in the shelf or even frying them to store. Being asian onions go well in our diet.
Nice post dianne. Am inspired 🙂
Thanks for pointing this out. It was a typo, actually. I have fixed it to say “1/4 cup chopped onion”. This reminds me of a client I had once, who couldn’t see anything wrong with writing “1 cup cheese.”
As someone who creates and writes recipes for a profession, there are a few considerations. In general, I like the 2 small celery ribs, chopped (1 cup) and 1/4 cup chopped yellow onion for smaller amounts. But all of this is moot if there is a house style, and sometimes that it determined by the design. I have a client who always puts the numerals in a column, so it becomes 1/4 small yellow onion, chopped (1/4 cup). Also, Chronicle and Stewart, Tabori, and Chang, and other publishers now require that the writer use BOTH US and metric measurements, so Dianne, it is changing very quickly. Lately, I am insisting on calling out the color/type of onion, because those crummy sweet onions (developed for salads, not cooking) are everywhere, and I know from experience that shoppers think they are the same or better than yellow/Spanish because they are “sweeter” and don’t make weepy eyes. And RECIPES INTO TYPE is such a useful book, most of the time, but golly gee…recipe writing has changed a lot since its publication 20 years ago. I wonder what they would say about Nigel Slater’s or Gabrielle Hamilton’s recipe writing skills? (Insert smily face icon here…)
Rick, this is just fabulous. I’d love it if you would write a guest post for me on all the different ways publishers ask for recipe ingredients. No wonder there is so little consensus on this topic. Sheesh.
I like to leave it up to the reader to figure out. Take an onion, a measuring cup, and chop until the measuring cup is filled. Why is that hard? There’s no way in hell that everybody will get the same EXACT measurement, but cooking doesn’t need to be exact. Lighten up folks!
I’m with you. People usually can’t buy less than one onion, so why do they need to know how much it will be in advance? But it’s also fine to say “1/4 large onion, chopped.” It’s just not as precise.
There is also a difference between saying “1/4 cup chopped onions” and “1/4 onion, chopped.” I’ve seen recipe writers confuse this often.
Yes, because they don’t take the size of onion into account. I think that’s your point.
This is a helpful discussion. As I’ve been writing/editing/proofing recipes for a cookbook with inexperienced cooks in mind, I have pondered (and been asked) these same questions. I have had questions from people who use onion powder and have never purchased an onion (I know, hard to believe), but we live in a world of “instant” and a generation raised on convenience foods. 🙁 So I’m including more specificity when it comes to measurements, where it may not be exact in what is purchased. Personally, I like the measurement first and the approximate amount in parenthesis — that way the exact measurement can be easily scanned and the information in parenthesis is secondary for clarification if needed:
1/2 cup onion, chopped (about 1/2 medium onion)
Counting almonds doesn’t make sense because they are different in size. If you needed to be that exact, you would go by weight not count. I have often wondered if much of this doesn’t come down to personality types driving the need for more details or not. When my (detail oriented) husband cooks with me, he is insistent on very clear, measured items even when it has no effect on the recipe. Being much more flexible, I’m comfortable winging it so we expect different things from a recipe. 🙂
Yes, I think this is key, deciding who the reader is and how much hand-holding they need. Our cookbook is not for beginners, unless they buy premade pizza dough and cook only the easiest few recipes in the book, possibly with jarred sauce. I guess that’s possible, but I hope not.
Wow. Recipe writing is changing so fast! I agree that it depends on the audience.
Often I write recipes in narrative form on my blog, where the measurements and descriptions are more casual and the recipes are easy to prepare. I wouldn’t do this for a multiple step recipe or one with more than ten ingredients. While I adore this style, I know it’s not acceptable in traditional publishing. (I recall Judith Jones stating that somewhere). For my cookbook, I used The Recipe Writer’s Handbook, per the publisher guidelines, plus the publisher has its own guidelines for style.
One thing is certain, there is so much more work involved writing a cookbook than most people realize.
Now I’m curious about adding the metric conversion. Hmm, food for thought. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!
It does seem to come down to circumstance — you can write ingredients however you want on your blog, or you have to follow a publisher’s style guide, and each publisher has a different one. My publisher, Rizzoli, had a very small one and the editor said they were not sticklers for it. But then the copy editor went to town on the manuscript, so that created a lot of work.
I forgot to ask-why was the red onion on the salmon pizza a source of contention? (I love that recipe, btw.)
Because I wrote “1/4 cup sliced onions” which seemed problematic to the copy editor. I will admit that it was problematic to me too, because they’re too long to actually fit well into a cup measure, but by then I was committed to a consistent style.
Rather than ask how many almonds (which made me chuckle), I’d rather she asked you to specify blanched or with their skin on.
Though I haven’t yet done it myself, I agree with Rick Rodgers’ comment about specifying the type of onion. Just came back from visiting family to find those sweet onions in their pantry. They had no idea what they had purchased, believing “onions are onions.” I’m going to change my ways and begin specifying yellow/Spanish onions as they do make a difference.
Oh gosh, I hope the default would be just “almonds.” The chef didn’t care if they were toasted or raw, blanched or us blanched, or salted or unsalted.
Re onions, it seems like we have to start saying “yellow” onions, even though they are the most common.
As I am in the process of putting together my first cookbook, this stresses me. My preference, not only in putting my own book together, but also as someone who reads other people’s cookbooks is simplicity. Personally I don’t need to know when I’m out doing my shopping how many stalks of celery I’m going to need to chop up to make half a cup. I think this just makes it so much more difficult – not only for the writer of the cookbook – but for the person reading the recipe. But that’s just my opinion. 🙂
Yes! Especially since, 98 percent of the time, you can only buy celery by the bunch, so you will certainly have enough.
I agree with the comments about weights, which would make things SOOO much easier when grocery shopping for nuts, vegetables, etc.
I do appreciate it when a recipe includes something like (approx. X medium-sized carrots) after the “3/4 cup grated carrots” because it is difficult to visualize how vegetables change volume depending on slicing, dicing, mincing, grating, etc.
On the other hand, other than in baking, how often does it really MATTER (in a crucial, dish-changing way) exactly how much of each ingredient you use? I regularly adjust recipes because I like some ingredients more than others or because my diners don’t (so less onion and garlic for my parents, more for me alone 🙂 So perhaps save the details for recipes in which it will really matter. In other recipes, encourage the cook to play around a bit and see what happens!
(BTW—What annoyed me about examples above was that they weren’t formatted consistently, so apparently I want consistency even more than the extra info. )
You are prompting me to do some re-measuring as I make some of my favorite recipes to make note of number & size of veggies, etc. So thanks for this interesting post!!
I am coming around to that way of thinking, even though I detest the idea of having a long string of ingredients that list the whole item first (1/2 medium onion, chopped) followed by the cup amount. The idea of 10 items showing 2 measurements each clogs up the page and makes the list look unnecessarily complicated. Thank God I wasn’t asked to include weights in addition.
Verily, intelesting!
Hah! Thanks Valerie.
It is even worse here in the UK, we are expected to put all measurements in both metric and imperial and also cups too in some cases. I tend to think cups and spoons are so much easier for readers to visualise than 100g or whatever.
That does sound way too complicated, for both the writer and the reader. I got off easy!
Your use of the word “jarred” to describe a sauce intrigued me enough to look it up. Google then offered me this use: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jarred
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your jarred hubby.
Um, I don’t recall using that term, but the definition is hilarious, Dave. It’s a good lesson about trusting the Internet for research. Happy T Day to you and Patty.
This post is a perfect argument for the use of weight measures. There’s no room for error if it’s 1/4 cup chopped onion (about 2 ounces). I think that ever so gradually publishers will go that route (I heard that Ten Speed is considering it seriously), especially if more and more authors argue for it (and have complaints/comments from recipe testers to back them up). It’s what I would prefer to do in my own book, but my editor nixed it. (I am going to insist for breads, though.)
Right now I’m going the route of “1 medium onion, chopped (about 1/2 cup or 4 ounces)”. And I am still going to continue to argue for including weights.
I agree with a previous commenter that you can never provide too much information (up to a point — “18 almonds” is too much information!!) in a recipe, especially if you’re hoping (as I am) that your book will appeal to novices as well as advanced cooks.
Yeah, probably not going to happen, Robyn, unless it’s in addition to imperial measurements. See http://diannej.com/2013/is-it-time-for-metrics-in-us-recipes-a-qa-with-ten-speeds-melissa-moore/
It seems a little overwhelming to have three measurements for every ingredient. That was my fear with the pizza book, that it would make the ingredients list look ominous. But other people say it’s just about providing information.
Sometimes it feels like copy editors want it whichever way I don’t write it!
Of course, I always think I’m handing in a perfect manuscript (LOL)…and always get back a sea of notes in the right column! I contemplate each suggestion, make the ones that I agree with, and always end up with a better finished product (and only a slightly bruised ego)!
Congratulations and good luck!
Hah!
Yes, I thought my manuscript was in such good shape too. Boy, we are delusional, eh?
My editor told me to leave the edits unless I disagreed. I think he was going to select “Accept All” afterwards. It was a sea of edits, so yes, my ego is slightly bruised as well.
Glad to read I am not alone, Terry.
I’m so far behind in reading and replying (teaching several cooking classes), but had to put my two cents in this topic. I rewrite recipes constantly for my cooking classes to make the ingredients and directions clearly for my students. I think that 1/4 cup chopped onions is more precise than 1/2 an onion for the reasons already stated (size of onion, carrot, celery, etc. varies widely); but I would restate as 1/4 cup medium diced onion or 1/4 cup small diced carrot because the size of the dice makes a big difference in the actual amount of the ingredient. Also what the ingredient is going into makes a difference. If the onion, carrot, celery is going into a braise that will be discarded later, size of cut isn’t as critical, but if the ingredient is going to stay in the final produce, as in a soup, then it because you don’t want a huge chunk of carrot on your soup, but a perfectly small or medium dice that is aesthetically pleasing, will fit on a soup spoon and in the diner’s mouth.
Hmm. You make some interesting points about precision and context, Carol. I’m not sure that people will the definition of a medium or small dice though, unless you have explained it at the front of the book. And then that is even more detail to add to just one line in the ingredients list. I can’t decide if we are making recipe ingredients far too complex or doing the right thing to explain the amount in 3 or 4 ways in just one line. It’s a dilemma, that’s for sure.
Nice Pizza !
Thank you! My photos are nothing compared with what you’ll see in the pizza book.
Uh, taste it!!!! I am a fan of Mark Bittman. He makes the valid point that all real food ingredients vary in moisture content sugars fiber. My personal cookbook consists of a lot of “some”, “a bit”,…
I flatly never saw anyone use a cookbook except for baking until a teenager. As far as I’m concerned a recipe is a framework not a prescription. Anyone without a feeling for the food is going to make a mess of it. Technique often matters more than subordinate ingredients like nuts. Cooking to an accurate result is a not the same as focus on false precision which leads to disappointing, flat results. Good thing I’m not in publishing though my hubby is.
While it’s true that in the end, tasting it will help you figure out what a dish needs, sometimes it’s too late by then. I don’t taste raw batter or ground meat or a soup that’s got more ingredients to go or more cooking to do. Also, someone might realize it doesn’t taste right but will have no idea how to fix it. Experienced cooks are more likely to figure it out, and they are not necessarily the target reader of your recipe.
Keep in mind I’m a home cook, not a professional, but one problem I have had with having two amounts listed, as that these two amounts may match up for the recipe author, but they might not match up for me, and then I’ve been left wondering what the actual intended amount is. To pull an example out of thin air, let’s say a recipe calls for 2 carrots, chopped (1 cup), and I’ve chopped up my two carrots and found they only fill a third of a cup. I’ve been in this situation before wondering if it was more important to use two carrots or to use a cup of carrots and have my number of carrots used totalling 9 instead of 2. I guess in retrospect, the volume is more important, but if two different amounts are listed (2 carrots, which might be 1/3 cup, or a cup of carrots, which might be 9 carrots), how can the average home cook be absolutely certain of what is intended?
I try not to stress over this sort of thing, because I believe there’s room for a lot of flexibility in recipes (“A cup of carrots?! Hey let’s try sweet potato and parsnip and see what happens!”) but if I want to recreate someone’s recipe exactly, the precision is important.
It’s true that it may not matter that much for many recipes, but I agree with you that volume is the most important thing to state, so 1 cup chopped carrots is the best measure.